A conversation with Vivian Gladwell and Ashley Ramsden concerning their upcoming course, Spiritual Masters and the Clown.

Vivian: In a few months from now, we will be together teaching “Clowning and Spiritual Masters” and I confess I’m always a little wary of the word “Spiritual”.
I want this course to be fun, joyful and filled with the irreverence of the clown.

Ashley: Yes, I agree. Irreverence is essential to the spiritual path. Otherwise, things get too serious, and that’s dire. That’s the old way, really. There hasn’t been enough humour in so many religious texts. But if you look deeper, there’s great hilarity and mirth.
Rumi asks, “Why do the prophets always look so solemn?”
They reply, “Come into our eyes, and you’ll hear the laughter widening out.”
Most spiritual masters, if not all, are laughing because, with their perspective, they see the humour in humankind’s struggles.
Hafiz says, “Now that all of your worry has proved such an unlucrative business, why not find yourself a better job?”

Vivian: The Dalai Lama comes to mind. His laughter is joyful and not mocking in any way.

Ashley: He and Desmond Tutu wrote “The Book of Joy”. They had such a laugh together. It’s sad that followers sometimes get overly serious, missing the lightness these masters embody.

That’s where the clown comes in. The clown brings outrageous, unpredictable perspectives, breaking open what’s too rigid. This was the role of the holy fool or the clown in indigenous communities—to break rules and teach through reverse examples.

Vivian: So I mentioned the “irreverence” of the clown.
Another word I’d like to throw in our discussion is Paradox. It was Niels Bohrs who said: “The opposite of a truth is usually a falsehood, but the opposite of a deeper truth can sometimes be another truth.”
Which, of course, coming from the world of quantum physics, was quite interesting for him to say because it truly applies to quantum principles.

Ashley: Irreverence and paradox are central themes. Paradox, where opposites can both be true, opens up so much.

Vivian: Zen Buddhism has a tradition of paradox through koans, and Sufi tales, like those of Nasruddin, also work with layers of meaning.

Ashley: Absolutely. The Sufis say Nasruddin’s stories have at least seven levels of meaning. I remember a man in South Africa, who’d been with Nelson Mandela, introducing himself by telling a Nasruddin story:

“Nasruddin saw his friends coming and wanted to hide. He noticed a freshly dug grave and jumped in. When his friends found him, they asked, ‘What are you doing down there?’ He replied, ‘My friends, to tell you the truth, I’m here because of you, and you’re there because of me.'”

It’s a joke, but also deeply profound. The Sufis say, “We must die before we die,” and this story works on so many levels. It’s perfect for clowning because the clown and the audience are so interconnected.

Vivian: In clowning, there are principles like authenticity and presence. The clown says the truth but cares deeply not to hurt others.

Ashley: That’s important—truth told without harm. Stories and metaphors help by putting something out there for interpretation. Rumi says, “Whenever a story is told, a house is destroyed.” Stories rearrange us, sometimes subtly, sometimes profoundly.

Vivian: For me, clowning was transformative. I came to England at 12, didn’t speak English, and couldn’t connect. Clowning taught me that roles are like games—you can play with them, tickle them, and not take them too seriously.

Ashley: Exactly. Clowning allows us to explore roles lightly. Psychology tells us we have many sub-personalities, and clowning helps us move between them.

Vivian: Another principle in clowning concerns a celebration of mistakes. Miles Davis said, “If you play a wrong note, play it again”— repeating a wrong note – it becomes the right note.”

Ashley: Yes! Mistakes break expectations, creating spontaneity. Rumi’s poem, The Guest House, reminds us to welcome everything that comes. Mistakes can be guides, opening new possibilities.

Vivian: I often tell students, “If something goes wrong, make it worse.” For the clown to fully embrace mistakes touches on our humanity – the most vulnerable part of ourselves deeply reveals us.

Ashley: That’s a spiritual perspective too. The spirit world created us to know itself better. So, when we mess up, it’s not just us—it’s the universe experimenting through us.

Join Ashley and Vivian for Clowning and Spiritual Masters which takes place from 9 – 14 March 2025.  More details and booking can be found here.